In this inaugural episode of Sound Bites, we talk with Paul Cathcart, area manager for Washington Fruit Growers, about his approach to ag tech and his advice for growers heading to the FIRA-USA tech conference in Yakima, Washington, Oct. 20–22. The episode also features a conversation with Jim Adams from Willow Drive Nursery in our Sponsor Spotlight.
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Good Fruit Grower’s Ross Courtney talks with Paul Cathcart.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Ross: Hello, welcome to Sound Bites, a podcast by Good Fruit Grower. I am Ross Courtney, an associate editor, and I’m here today with Paul Cathcart, well known in the industry for adopting technology and putting it to use. Paul, who are you with now and what’s your role at the company?
Paul: I work for Washington Fruit Growers as an area manager and the R&D coordinator.
Ross: So that’s where the technology prowess comes in.
Paul: Exactly.
Ross: Well, Paul, I picked on you because we have FIRA coming up and it’s in Washington and in our backyard for a change, so busy growers in harvest actually might be able to get to it. What do you think? Are you glad it’s in Washington, and why?
Paul: Yeah, kind of for the same reason you just mentioned. I think it’s really important for growers in our region to have the opportunity to see these technologies. And given the time of year, it’d be really tough to go and see them if it was in California, for a lot of us who have boots on the ground here in Yakima. And another big benefit that I see is hopefully these ag tech companies can see how much potential and demand there is here in Eastern Washington and specifically in the Yakima area. There’s a lot of hunger for ag tech, and I think ag tech will be a major part of what keeps our industry viable in the coming years. Hopefully this puts us on the map to be an area that people are interested in.
Ross: OK, ag tech is going to keep our industry viable. Why is that? Is it because of the labor savings, because of the precision? Because of both? Why is this so important?
Paul: Yeah, I think all the above. Our industry is under a lot of pressure financially to either decrease costs or increase revenue. Hopefully we can do both. And I think ag tech is going to be a way to do that. Labor demand is not going down. Labor supply is, though. That’s been a big challenge, and so we’re looking for a way to be the most efficient as possible with our labor. And also to use labor for the most impactful tasks, right?
Those are major things. And I think also ag tech will offer a great opportunity to bring young people who may not have been interested in staying in the Valley to stay here, have a job that they’re interested in doing, that they can relate to. I think it’s good for bringing the next generation in.
Ross: OK, let’s get into some specifics. What kind of things do you think tree fruit growers should be checking out at FIRA? There’s robots galore, but they can’t take a close look at everything. Anything in particular you’re interested in, or you think tree fruit growers should be interested in?
Paul: Yeah, I’m really interested in technology that’s being used to sense and count things in the orchard that normally we would have to do manually. So, especially around crop load management. Here in the Valley we have a few options that are pretty widely known at this point. But I think, hopefully, at FIRA we’ll see people maybe from Europe or the Southern Hemisphere who are doing similar lines of work that we haven’t been exposed to yet, and who may have some novel approaches that can be pretty cool. And hopefully we can build some partnerships with some new players, you know, to get more options available. So, I definitely encourage people to be looking at that.
Same goes with irrigation. There is potential there. There are some new up-and-coming irrigation control companies. Reliability is a major component of that, and support, so it may be harder for us to partner with people from halfway around the world on that sort of thing. But those are two areas I’m really interested in.
Obviously, some of the more tactile or physical robotics that will be at the show, like anyone working on harvest-type technology, I think it’s really interesting for us to know where that is coming down the road. I don’t think we’re going to see anything that’s ready for action for next year, per se. But when we’re making decisions on how to plant orchards, part of that decision is ‘OK, how far down the line is robotics,’ right? If it’s five years down the road, maybe I don’t plant a V-trellis. But if it’s still 20 years down the road, maybe I do. I think those are the kinds of things that we should be looking out for.
Ross: So, to reiterate, irrigation, crop load management and harvest. If I remember right, those are the three priorities of the Tree Fruit Research Commission’s technology roadmap.
Paul: Correct, yeah.
Ross: And it sounds like you’re saying two of them are at least within pretty close reach, if not already commercially available, and then the harvest one is a little further out.
Paul: Absolutely. Harvest is something to keep an eye on, something to continue to promote and express interest in. But I mean, hopefully I’m wrong. I’d love to be proved wrong at the show — that there’s something ready.
I guess one other thing to tie in with the vision systems, I would be really interested in hunting down people doing precision spray. That’s what bridges the vision technology into the physical world, right? So, I’m really curious to see what kind of spray controllers are out there. Maybe autonomous tractors, anything of that sort.
Ross: OK, yeah, you and I have talked about this over the years, getting from sensing something in the orchard to turning it into some kind of action. And that often is through the sprayer. The other thing we’ve talked about quite a bit is, I’m almost calling it a mindset that you’ve encouraged, and you’re not the only one that urges growers to try out technology in a simple way before they expect it to solve all their problems — a ‘walk before you run’ sort of approach. Give us some practical examples of that.
Paul: Sure. With the vision technology specifically, I can use this as an example: For a long time we just were stuck in a mode of trying to validate the vision technology and not actually using it to do anything. And at this point, we feel like we really need to start doing something concrete with it in order to justify the time and expense that’s going into participating in it. There’s the home run that we want to hit, which is using it to do precision spray for crop load management around thinning — blossom thinning and post-bloom thinning. And there’s a tendency to feel like: Well, that’s what I really want to do with it, and so I’m not going to do anything else. But until I’m actually able to get confidence that this system can produce task maps that I can actually go out and spray, I don’t think I’ll ever be ready to do that chemical thinning.
So, my approach on that this year, and Washington Fruit’s approach, I should say, was to get started with doing some spray applications, seeing what that process feels like, getting some task maps made, going out and applying them, but in a lower risk scenario that we feel comfortable with.
For us specifically, this year that was going out and applying nitrogen on weak sections of the block that we were able to identify using a camera and seeing the hue of the canopy was yellower than the rest. Then at that point we were able to go sample the leaf tissue and prove out that truly it was deficient in nitrogen. And then we’d go back and use that same map to do a nitrogen application on Honeycrisp midseason, which is kind of scary because you don’t want to do that on trees that aren’t deficient in nitrogen. And so that’s what this technology unlocked. We can go spray just the areas that need it and keep that nitrogen off the rest of the trees. It actually worked really well, I think, for that type of zoned application that wasn’t necessarily needing to be down to a tree-level precision. It worked really well. It was probably down to three or four trees of precision instead of a single tree.
Ross: OK, so that’s the risk you’re talking about. There’s a little room for error when you’re doing three or four trees at a time versus if you’re going tree by tree and you’re off by one tree, boy, you’re spraying every wrong tree.
Paul: Right. And the risk of overthinning is probably higher than putting 10 pounds of nitrogen on a tree that you wouldn’t want to, especially if it’s only less than 1 percent of the trees in the block that would get over-applied.
Ross: And just a detail, is this a nitrogen spray or on the soil?
Paul: We did both, actually. We did a foliar and a ground application of nitrogen. And that was just to compare the efficacy of each type of application. So, the same units of N going in on the ground versus the leaf and seeing what had a faster reaction.
Ross: And how are you measuring which areas need nitrogen, which don’t? Is there a canopy infrared or something like that?
Paul: Right. It was purely based off of the canopy color, the hue of the canopy, yes.
Ross: The sensor could measure that.
Paul: Yeah, it’s just a regular red, green, blue camera and it can see the color of the leaves and will be able to create a heat map of where in the orchard was it more yellow versus darker green.
Ross: So, this walk before you run mentality that you’ve just advocated here, how can growers take that with them to FIRA? When I walk into FIRA, I mean, I saw robots that … parents in San Francisco were letting them follow their kids around while they trick-or-treated — it was mind-boggling. But I would get overwhelmed by that. So just a little bit more muted expectations: How would that show up as a grower walking around FIRA?
Paul: I would be on the hunt — and I will personally be on the hunt — to find something, maybe just one or two things that I feel comfortable using. It might not be the biggest slam dunk in the history of the world, but it’s at least something that I feel like if I bought this or partnered with this company that I could implement this right away in year one and do something tangible with it, right? And I think that’s just part of the process of walking before you run with this stuff and trying to get reps on it. For me, that’s especially important if there’s something you can do with the technology to get started with, and you see more potential for it developing down the road. That’s the totally winning situation.
Ross: Something you can grow into.
Paul: Yeah, and for me, really the easy winner is precision spray because there are so many different options of what you can do with that.
Ross: You didn’t say this, but it almost sounds like you’re advocating that growers themselves, the customers of all this technology, are part of the growth curve, are part of the progress.
Paul: I do agree with that. I think there’s always a kind of push-and-pull learning process that whatever tech company you’re working with, they’re going to be doing a lot of learning along with the grower. The grower is going to have to learn a lot of new processes as well. But a lot of the ag tech companies actually have a lot to learn still about tree fruit, and they can adapt their tech stack to better match our needs here in Yakima.
Ross: That brings us about to a close here. Any other thoughts about FIRA or technology adoption in the tree fruit industry overall? Things we should be on the lookout for, keeping in the back of our own minds?
Paul: I’d really encourage people just to not be afraid to share their ideas with these ag tech companies. They’re here to learn from us as much as to show us what they have already. They don’t know all the problems that we have that need solving yet. And so, part of it is that conversation. For instance, I talked to a laser weeder company down in California, and I said, ‘Hey, could you tilt that on its side and laser weed the flowers off of my canopy?’
Ross: You wanted to use it for thinning.
Paul: Blossom thinning, yeah. So maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but they didn’t even think of that use case, right? Hopefully we can have a lot of different conversations like that that spark new ideas and move the ball forward.
Ross: Well, we’ll have to get you back here if they do that and tell us how it worked.
Paul: Yeah, exactly.
Ross: Weeding blossoms. I like it. Well, Paul, we really appreciate you joining us. This has been the Sound Bites podcast by Good Fruit Grower, and we’ll see you at FIRA. Thanks, Paul.
Good Fruit Grower’s Germaine Newstead talks with Jim Adams, co-owner of Willow Drive Nursery.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Germaine: Good morning, I’m Germaine Newstead with Good Fruit Grower magazine, and today I’m sitting here with Jim Adams, co-owner of Willow Drive Nursery. Jim, can you tell us a little bit about Willow Drive Nursery, what growers are looking for in terms of varieties, rootstocks and tree types?
Jim: That’s a good question, Germaine. Everybody seems to be looking for something a little bit different, but all looking for the same thing as well. You know, the profitability of the growers and marketers and all the way through the supply chain is very important, and it’s important for us as well as a nursery.
As we look around and try to find varieties or breed varieties or bring new things to the growers in the state of Washington and the rest of the United States, we just feel it’s important to bring the best quality and best genetics that we can so that there’s a long future with those varieties.
Germaine: Jim, what sets Willow Drive apart, and what do growers value most about working with your team?
Jim: You know, we have a great set of customers all over the United States and Canada. We really value the relationships we have with those customers, and I think in turn they value the trust that they put in us because of our ability to solve problems and to help them through issues that may arise.
I wish Mother Nature was always perfect, but various problems come up, and I think the way that we handle those things over the years has given them that stability and knowledge that we’re going to stand behind them and stand behind the product that we have.
We really do highly value the people at Willow Drive. Normally, the average employee has been with us at least 20 years, and so we really appreciate those types of people that are so committed to not only us but to our customers as well. And it shows in the product that gets delivered to them.
Germaine: Jim, what challenges facing growers today do you feel will have the biggest impact on the industry?
Jim: I think their ability to understand and know where the industry is headed is a big thing, and a lot of times they look to the nursery to find out what’s new, what’s coming. The question I get asked the most is ‘What should we plant next?’ They want to be on the edge. Whether those varieties are managed or not, I think the grower just wants a fair chance to be profitable.
Germaine: And how do you feel giving that advice, when you’re asked by a grower what will be the next best variety?
Jim: Every grower’s a little bit different, right? And they’re in different regions of the United States, and there are different demands for those areas. We’re trying to help them all individually as we help them collectively, as well.
A lot of the varieties that we’re managing or bringing in through a sister company that Willow Drive owns, we work with entities all around the world to try to bring those varieties and help place them in the U.S. if they’re valuable to that growing region. If you talk to growers in New York or Canada, you’re going to be having a different discussion than you do with the growers in Washington. Knowing that, I think it just helps for us to be flexible and also have a lot of available options.
Germaine: Jim, can you tell us a little more about how Willow Drive Nursery got started and how your family roots have shaped the nursery over the years?
Jim: This is quite an interesting story, at least from my perspective being a family member. My grandfather, living in Idaho in Mink Creek, they were raising cattle and farming in the rocks. Money wasn’t readily available, and farming was pretty tough there.
When the Reclamation Project finished up in Washington and they finished the Grand Coulee Dam and the canal systems were taking water, what they did is they had basically a lottery. My grandfather, after serving in World War II, had received a coupon and he put that coupon in this turnstile. I believe he was in the first 10 or 11 farms drawn.
He picked the home unit that we have today still. There’s some interesting story there that goes along with that. He moved from Idaho, brought my dad, who was 14, left him there and went back to Idaho to get the rest of the family. My dad lived in a tent and went to school, caught the bus and went to the YMCA to shower or showered at the high school, and that was their life for a little while as they got things set up.
Carl Perleberg, who was a nurseryman in Washington at Columbia Basin Nursery, approached my grandfather and asked him if he would grow rootstock. And so that’s really the start of Willow Drive Nursery as a nursery. Over the years, as we grew rootstocks, we met other people in the nursery industry. We met Wally Heuser from Hilltop Orchards and Nurseries back in Michigan, and Wally came to my dad and grandpa and said, ‘Hey, can you guys grow apple trees for us?’ We didn’t have any intellectual property of our own. We didn’t have any varieties that we could grow that we had the rights to, and so this was a way for us to grow trees for Hilltop.
Willow Drive was actually known as Willow Drive Nursery and Hilltop West for many years, up until 1972, until Willow Drive was incorporated as a standalone company. After those years, we were able to get some of their varieties and go out on our own and have our own rights to propagation of certain varieties.
Germaine: That’s amazing. What a great story. Jim, what role do you see Willow Drive playing in the future of the industry?
Jim: Well, I would hope that we’re there to play a role, first and foremost. You know, things change all the time. Hopefully, the varieties that we’re going to bring and the work that we’re doing with rootstock and different things, hopefully those will be valuable to the grower as we move forward. I think you need to have somebody that’s looking out after your clean plant material so that when the new future variety does come, there’s a way to make things happen.
Germaine: Jim, could you tell us what legacy that you want to leave with Willow Drive?
Jim: Well, most importantly I want to continue the legacy that our fathers and grandfather have built for us. They did a really good job at creating a company of fairness and honesty and a good product name, and it’s our job as the third generation to maintain that and to also build upon that and, hopefully, to keep that future for the next generation, possibly.
We hope that the industry is profitable, and remains profitable, and we all work together because we really do work in one of the best industries in the world. I feel so blessed because we have so many friends, and they’re all over the world. It’s just amazing that we have so many wonderful relationships, and we hope that is our legacy.
Germaine: That’s a great answer. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Jim, for joining us and thank you listeners for tuning in to our first Good Fruit Grower Sound Bites.
Our thanks to Tory Schmidt of Wenatchee, Washington,
for sharing the reason he’s part of the tree fruit industry
Hi, this is Tory Schmidt. I’m an independent pear grower from the Wenatchee River Valley. And the reason why I keep farming is not for financial reasons at this point, but because I want to preserve my family legacy.
We’re the fourth generation of my wife’s family who’ve been farming this ground, and we take pride in that. And we also take pride in our ability to build relationships with our employees and to provide them good livings for several generations.
And so, even though the satisfaction from growing may not come from your bank account these days, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to preserve our family legacy and to give our employees a good living. Thanks.
